Papa Winchester

[moonlettuce]

So, I started off writing a rambling post about John Winchester and why so many authors seem to turn him into omg, worst parent ever. And then I deleted it, because it really was rather rambling and kind of made no sense.

I do, however, stick by the following sentiment:

I actually want to take every author who writes John like this and shake them while reminding them that John died for Dean. He walked into that deal, knowing full well he would be going to Hell and not expecting to get back out again, because he was unprepared to let Dean die.

I had enough of the show retconning John to be a terrible father/husband/person, I don't need the fandom to be doing it, as well.

And then I realise that I need to back away from the computer because we're actually talking about a fictional character, and I shouldn't be getting so riled up while muttering "Don't be dissing on John--" under my breath.

Maybe I'll just channel all the snark I'm feeling into writing John/Dean instead...

Comments

[cycnus39]

I completely agree with you. In canon most of these bad daddy John tales come from Dean, of course, so can we say 'unreliable narrator', boys and girls?

It winds me up no end. You could see John loved his boys and would a previously gentle and kinda boring guy suddenly turn himself into Mr Hunter Supreme because he wasn't too bothered about a demon murdering his wife? I think not.

Bollocks, I say.

[metaallu.livejournal.com]

ohmgoddoit.

I-I mean... .... .... HRM.

[dametokillfor.livejournal.com]

JOHN/DEAN IS WRONG AND FILTHY AND I AM DISGUSTED THAT YOU WOULD EVEN MENTION IT.

...

I'm not fooling anybody.

But on topic, I personally don't think John was a bad guy. Sure he's not going to win any Parent of the Year awards, shit, he won't even get the 'World's Best Dad' mug but he's not a bad guy. He did what he did to protect those boys, everything he did was for the love of his family. Yes, he made some honking great mistakes but who the fuck doesn't? I love John Winchester, I will defend him to the death.

[ariadne83]

Honestly? I think a lot of the John hate is the result of a flaw in the show. The writers always make it all-or-nothing - complete innocence or badass MOFO soldier (god, I hate false dichotomies; give me middle ground or give me death).

In that framework they're saying John was a terrible Daddy for teaching them anything at all which REALLY bugs me. Seriously? I'd consider anyone who didn't at least teach them how to defend themselves a neglectful parent. Ignorance is not bliss, show! Ignorance gets you dead needlessly, and teaching your kids about salt line is not ev0l; it's sensible.

[phantomas.livejournal.com]

Gosh, don't get me started.
If John didn't behave as he did, the boys would be probably dead by now. I will argue this with everyone.

The show is doing a really bad job of it, I agree. I understand why they wanted Dean to be a tad more realistic about his father being a human being and not a god, but you don't really need to kill someone in order to grow up.

It's a question of balance.

Many fans just like emo!Dean, and pick up John as torturer (I'm mean and I think it reflects said fans issues with authority).

I rejoyce when Dean tells Sam:"He's not Dad," about Samuel not valueing family as they are used to.

John was the best father he could possibly be, if survival is what you want for your kids. And he loved them.

I'll shut up and wait for you to write John/Dean :D

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

Every time I bring that up, I get told that John didn't die for Dean, he died so that he could guarantee that Sam would be watched and not allowed to go evil. Like Dean wouldn't try to do that anyways!

John may have had his faults, but he and Dean did genuinely love each other; and he loved Sam, though they had their difficulties. Maybe he should have tried to foster the kids somewhere; but he wanted them with him, where he could protect them himself. I can understand that.

I don't think people grasp what it would be like for him, to have gone through what he did, and the way it would affect a real person. But then we're talking about a fanbase that largely sees the fact that he was in the military as automatically making him an unfeeling asshole, so. Biased from the start.

[stageira.livejournal.com]

Don't get me started. No really, don't.

To all the writers out there looking for a bad guy: how about you try something original and leave John alone?

Maybe I'll just channel all the snark I'm feeling into writing John/Dean instead...

Oooooooooooh..... o.O. Uhm, yes please?

[temaris.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to comment on the dissonance between saying John is a good father, and writing them in an incestuous relationship. :) (consenting adults, stockholm syndrome, inherently abusive, only natural in such high stakes lifestyle... I know :) Like I said, not commenting :) )

[moonlettuce.livejournal.com]

Absolutely! Dean's a completely unreliable narrator, as is Sam. And I guess it was just one 'John's a raging alcoholic who neglects Sam and Dean' too far.

[moonlettuce.livejournal.com]

::grin::

[moonlettuce.livejournal.com]

Oh, absolutely. John makes mistakes. In many ways, he makes really fucking epic mistakes. But he's human, and given the situation he finds himself in, I really think he does what he thinks is best at the time. In hindsight, should he have let it all go and not started hunting? Possibly. But let's admit it, once you know that sort of shit's out there, you really can't not know it anymore.

Also, you are totally right and should feel ashamed for even thinking of John/Dean. I mean, who wants to think of horrible vision that is Dean, looking up at John as he sinks to his knees, his hands reaching out for John's belt. And he not, shaking, he's not. It's just cold in the room; it's got nothing to do with the fact that he's wanted this for so long. Wanted this because this is the only man who held the darkness at bay, who didn't expect him to be anything else than Dean.

And he needs to know. He needs to know how John tastes, how he feels when his fingers are in Dean's hair and he's heavy on Dean's tongue. He needs to know because it's Dad, needs to know because it's John. And if Dean can't have anything else, then he's going to have this.

[moonlettuce.livejournal.com]

Absolutely! And I'm not denying that John made some bad choices and that, in hindsight, there were things he could have done differently. But he did what he thought was best at the time.

[moonlettuce.livejournal.com]

(I'm mean and I think it reflects said fans issues with authority).

I'm meaner and think it reflects a lack of imagination and bad writing ;D

[moonlettuce.livejournal.com]

he died so that he could guarantee that Sam would be watched and not allowed to go evil

Except he could have just let Dean die and do that himself ::grin::

Normally I can gloss over the "John's a bad parent, omg!" crowd, but I think this was just one story too far :D

[moonlettuce.livejournal.com]

how about you try something original and leave John alone

Because that involves imagination and the ability to write something other than cliché ;D

[phantomas.livejournal.com]

LOL, that too ;)

[metaallu.livejournal.com]

I am not an instigator :D
nope.

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

And presumably, he'd do it better than Dean, since he wouldn't allow his emotions to sway him from doing what he had to do, if the worst happened, right? Good point, I don't think I've ever seen anyone bring it up!


One bad thing about being in a fandom where I've not actually watched or read the source materials (SPN is one, comic fandom is another) is that I have to pick up a certain amount of characterization judgement and background info from other fans. Sometimes, I can see it; and sometimes, the mainstream opinion is dead WRONG, which I find out after poking and prodding around for scans, pics, quotes, interviews, etc. ~scowls

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

And it's not like he had a lot of people he could go to for help learning! You don't just walk up to your local hunter connection and get hooked into the network as an apprentice or something. You find out, usually by accident, after someone gets hurt or killed; and you make an acquaintance here, an ally there, and gradually build up your data base of who's who in the hunting/supernatural world. Just like any undercover operative would, only with less back-up!

[realpestilence.livejournal.com]

That's the same kind of mind-set in the new Star Trek verse that has McCoy a raging alcholic because he showed up on the shuttle after a few tipples. He clearly wasn't smashed, because he could speak without slurring, he was cognizant, he walked without staggering, etc. But he had a flask on him, was unshaven, and post-bitter divorce, so hey! Let's make him and alky and not have to actually look for characterization possibilities! ~shakes fist

[kriari.livejournal.com]

Way, way, WAY late, but I agree with all of this right here.

I say that all the time. ALL THE TIME.

John did the best he could with what he had. His obsession was born out of love regardless of the dark path it led him down. He adored those boys and did what he genuinely felt was best for them. I just...

I don't get it.

I hope in the rare times I've written John (um, one) that he comes across as conflicted rather than EEEEVIL.

I think there should be a Daddy Winchester appreciation meme of some sort. Because he never gets enough love.
but don't look at me

[moonlettuce.livejournal.com]

I think there should be a Daddy Winchester appreciation meme of some sort. Because he never gets enough love.

There totally should be :D

::looks at you::

::grin::